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Thread: Army Demotion?

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    Default Army Demotion?

    So for about the past 18 16 Months I have been having some real problems in my company.
    Back in Feb of 2008 an 18 year Specialist in my section came to me with an unsigned PT Test she said she had just taken. Not a drop of sweat on her face and she is very overwieght. I told her she couldnt turn it in and when she did anyway I reported it up the chain of command. Well turns out my 1SG (Her best friend) had "Given" her the PT Test and was pretty upset that the commander caught wind of this (I told my next in command a SFC he told the commander)

    Well my 1SG has non stop given me shit and harrased me since then. I have tried to switch companys but have been denied 4 times.

    Anyway 2 nights ago I was checking an LES and it showed me as an E-3 since May. Can I be demoted with out even being notified or counseld of any wrong doing? I have no negetive counseling statements and I have been wearing my specialist Rank with out anyone saying anything to me.

    Is this "Legal"??

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    Short Timer CWO Sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PFabs View Post
    So for about the past 18 16 Months I have been having some real problems in my company.
    Back in Feb of 2008 an 18 year Specialist in my section came to me with an unsigned PT Test she said she had just taken. Not a drop of sweat on her face and she is very overwieght. I told her she couldnt turn it in and when she did anyway I reported it up the chain of command. Well turns out my 1SG (Her best friend) had "Given" her the PT Test and was pretty upset that the commander caught wind of this (I told my next in command a SFC he told the commander)

    Well my 1SG has non stop given me shit and harrased me since then. I have tried to switch companys but have been denied 4 times.

    Anyway 2 nights ago I was checking an LES and it showed me as an E-3 since May. Can I be demoted with out even being notified or counseld of any wrong doing? I have no negetive counseling statements and I have been wearing my specialist Rank with out anyone saying anything to me.

    Is this "Legal"??

    lol sorry that this message made me chuckle but first of all what was your rank before this "demotion". Sounds like specialist to me. Anyway. the only way you can get a demotion is from an article 15 and it depends on what level (company grade/field grade)
    http://www.wood.army.mil/sja/TDS/art...fact_sheet.htm

    And before you get to an article 15, your command has to have documented negative counselings on you. If you didnt get a negative written counseling which will document a pattern of misconduct then they cant give you an article 15.

    PT cards are signed by Senior NCOs and perhaps a SSG(P) in a frocked slot.
    If you were a specialist and did this, I commend you but that is not your lane (meaning as a specialist in a non-leadership/team leader slot; you just worry about yourself. You shouldnt "report" something that you dont know the whole facts on). You said you went to your chain but an E-7 shouldnt be up on the chain if you are an E-4/E-5 but its possible. Also, a specialist that is best friends with a 1SG smells of fraternization to me. That is not good. What are the sexes of these two individuals?

    If you feel you getting slighted, then I suggest you talk to your EO representative. Sometimes they suggest that you talk to the person individually so you might be intimidated if you have to discuss this with your TOP. Talk to your first line supervisor on your sentiments and about your LES and see what they say. Thats a long time to have continuous problems in your unit. Sad.
    Last edited by CWO Sharkey; 07-08-2009 at 06:09 AM.
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    Warrentofficerlq.
    Sorry guess I should have mentioned I was the section leader at the time (No NCO's) so yea the SFC was next in my chain of command and the Specialist was under me because despite her 18 years in, my commander felt she wasnt "responsible" enough for the job.
    Well the Specialist is a female and my 1SG is a Male for sexes.
    For the EO I actually did file because both the individuals were Hispianic and I am white but I was told over and over agian to drop the complaint by the EO Officer and my LT.

    All I ever wanted was for this situation to be dropped or just talked out but I have been refused and in my commanders own words she ignored me when I went to her about the Harrasment. This situation Sucks! I cant transfer out and the Harrasment has been so bad over the past year and a half that I have been fighting with deppression. When your 1SG hates you he can really make your life hell.

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    Short Timer CWO Sharkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PFabs View Post
    Warrentofficerlq.
    Sorry guess I should have mentioned I was the section leader at the time (No NCO's) so yea the SFC was next in my chain of command and the Specialist was under me because despite her 18 years in, my commander felt she wasnt "responsible" enough for the job.
    Well the Specialist is a female and my 1SG is a Male for sexes.
    For the EO I actually did file because both the individuals were Hispianic and I am white but I was told over and over agian to drop the complaint by the EO Officer and my LT.

    All I ever wanted was for this situation to be dropped or just talked out but I have been refused and in my commanders own words she ignored me when I went to her about the Harrasment. This situation Sucks! I cant transfer out and the Harrasment has been so bad over the past year and a half that I have been fighting with deppression. When your 1SG hates you he can really make your life hell.
    Got it. Have you seen a chaplain for your depression? I think you should. Anyway, when you get your monthly counselings, write your feelings on that form. That is what its meant for as well and it documents that you been tracking this issue. If your immediate leadership is not giving you the results you like; then keep going up the chain (Battalion Commander). Personally, I wouldnt let a 1SG get to me. I been cursed at by a 1SG back in the day and just drove on. Now I outrank him lol.
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    Thanks I apperciate that alot. Ya I have tried going to the BC but I was threatend with a discharge if I tried to speak with him. I know they couldnt do that but idk guess I just have been letting a few bad people get to me. as for Counselings Ha! Wouldnt that be great a National Guard unit that counsels soldiers on paper.

    2 Years ago I witnessed a Newly Promoted SGT (E-5) get cursed out by an E-3. When the PFC wouldnt listen or even sign a counseling state ment the Sargent went to his Platoon Sgt and told him right in front of the Company "so?" Later on that day I was sharing a ride back with that same Platoon Sgt and we were talking about the situation. When I expressed my feelings he told me "if you expect people to go by the reg's and do things the way they are supposed to be done you shouldnt have joined the Guard."

    Oh well that just ranting but a good story none the less

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    Moderator Master Tanker's Avatar
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    Pfabs, looks like you really are in a bum outfit. Are you in the Reserves, NG?
    Faked PT tests, horny 1SGs, racial corruption, disinterested Company COs. and chain of Command. What is this? The army of Zimbabwe or Guinea? Is this all true? Is there an IG? Why don't you show him these responses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Master Tanker View Post
    Pfabs, looks like you really are in a bum outfit. Are you in the Reserves, NG?
    Faked PT tests, horny 1SGs, racial corruption, disinterested Company COs. and chain of Command. What is this? The army of Zimbabwe or Guinea? Is this all true? Is there an IG? Why don't you show him these responses?
    Well to be Honest Master Tanker most of this does sound pretty hard to belive it is alot of stuff and trust me when I say I can tell ya more stories like whne I had to miss a drill for EMT Training and over $750 worth of my gear went "Missing" and even tho 2 Spc in my section swore my lock was cut off my locker, my 1SG and his 2 Fav NCO's said it wasnt and they didnt cut it.... ya that was part of the harrasment I have gone thru.

    Well I will put it like this a friend and Mentor of mine retired early because of alot of these actions and he was up for MSG but said he couldnt stomach it because he would have to stay in this unit with this 1SG.

    The Faked PT Tests are just a Part of my states way of promoting people. You see that in every unit sad to say.

    Whats a guy to do, i'm just a junior enlisted

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    Quote Originally Posted by PFabs View Post
    Well to be Honest Master Tanker most of this does sound pretty hard to belive it is alot of stuff and trust me when I say I can tell ya more stories like whne I had to miss a drill for EMT Training and over $750 worth of my gear went "Missing" and even tho 2 Spc in my section swore my lock was cut off my locker, my 1SG and his 2 Fav NCO's said it wasnt and they didnt cut it.... ya that was part of the harrasment I have gone thru.

    Well I will put it like this a friend and Mentor of mine retired early because of alot of these actions and he was up for MSG but said he couldnt stomach it because he would have to stay in this unit with this 1SG.

    The Faked PT Tests are just a Part of my states way of promoting people. You see that in every unit sad to say.

    Whats a guy to do, i'm just a junior enlisted

    Are you an M-day soldier (one weekend a month) or AGR/Tech/Full-time.
    Even though its the guard; its no excuse and you can go to www.nationalguard.com/forums to discuss your issue with fellow guardsman. I am active duty and they didnt like my responses lol.

    Regs are Regs. Even though the rules are bent; if you following the Army Regulations, you cant be wrong.

    If you are M-day; dont sweat it, time with fly and you will be in another unit. I suggest you go find a unit in your state (Reserves or Guard) that has an opening in your MOS and get a letter of vacancy. They can help pull strings to get you there. Go to the IG or STARC and speak to individuals there. Dont be afraid to open your mouth tactifully if you saying is true and you squared away. If you jacked up; it will be hard to find help.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warrantofficerlq View Post
    Are you an M-day soldier (one weekend a month) or AGR/Tech/Full-time.
    Even though its the guard; its no excuse and you can go to www.nationalguard.com/forums to discuss your issue with fellow guardsman. I am active duty and they didnt like my responses lol.

    Regs are Regs. Even though the rules are bent; if you following the Army Regulations, you cant be wrong.

    If you are M-day; dont sweat it, time with fly and you will be in another unit. I suggest you go find a unit in your state (Reserves or Guard) that has an opening in your MOS and get a letter of vacancy. They can help pull strings to get you there. Go to the IG or STARC and speak to individuals there. Dont be afraid to open your mouth tactifully if you saying is true and you squared away. If you jacked up; it will be hard to find help.

    Well I have always been a Squared away soldier problem is after a year of all of this people have looked at me as a problem. "Where there is smoke there is fire" One nice Major told me that. I am an Mday soldier but I was full-time with the 1SG. He started to go after my personal life and I had to leave that job.

    You are very right tho 1 weekend a month does go by fast the only problem is aside from this unit I love the military life and I wanted to go career. I was about to join the PA Program and get my direct commision but well I guess the way my commander and my Commander before him have treated the situation I have questioned if I want to be around people like this and how many people are like this in the Military? Maybe it is just because of my Rank that people assume I must just be some whiny SPC.

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    From your very first post I had this labelled as a NG problem. With that being said it sounds like the "Good ole buy sydrom" going on in your unit.

    Your problem can go on for a while since you normally only drill one weekend a month and 2 weeks for summer camp.

    As a NG member have you went to your NG Bureau? If not go see a retention NCO at the Bureau and explain the situation and see if he/ she can find you a new unit by your MOS, Paragraph and LIN. You NG Bureau is open 5 days a week and will be a little easier to deal with than your 1SG.

    NG and USAR CDR's can reduce an E-4 and below without NJP, the CDR promotes and can take away with just a stroke from the PC NCO and Unit Administrator. (it's that simple). I am assuming you was not an E-4 for very long, if I recall there is a 6 month or 1 year (probationary type promotion) it's been a while so dont quote me on the probation.

    You also have the option of just U-ing out of your unit, at that point the retention folks would probably start calling you trying to find out if they could help you get back in to help a unit that is short in strength. (Not guaranteed though and it could backfire and you could be placed in a unit that is short to go play in the big sandbox). However when you go to speak with the retention folks, you could always say that you may have to U- out but would rather just transfer. This may make them pursue the transfer faster.

    In the RA things like this get solved quickly sine soldiers work every day. Remember since you are in the Guard though normal complaint timelines are modified IAW AR's and gives CDR's more time to work on issues. (In the case of EO, IG and COC complaints).

    As stated above dont give up, if you know you are right. Remember this; "It's always easier to take the easy wrong than it is to take the hard right". Eventually things happen and people get caught.

    Good luck and keep us posted.
    Last edited by dibblejr; 07-09-2009 at 04:01 AM.
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